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Is the use of "deaf and dumb" even appropriate? - MTAJ
Posted: Sep 12, 2013
I have a doctor dictating "The patient is deaf and dumb". Isn't this an old school saying? It seems wrong for a doctor to be saying this but thought I'd see what others though.
I feel about the same as a doctor saying - Karla
[ In Reply To ..]pee. If it was my work we would have to leave in as is though.
If it is true, why would you question it? - and how
[ In Reply To ..]would you know whether it was true or not? Do you know the patient? Why would you think you have the right to cover that up? If the patient cannot hear and cannot speak, then it is true and it is not your business to change it. It's not up to you to decide what should go into a patient's medical report.
My reason for asking... - MTAJ
[ In Reply To ..]First off, I had actually never heard this phrase before which was my initial reason for questioning it. I did further research and according to what I read, this is a phrase that was used a long time ago and is not considered to be polite. It is an ESL doctor who has a lot of poor English tendencies. I decided to put a question in to my editor.
Many years ago, my mom worked delivering newspapers....sm - LoveMT
[ In Reply To ..]We lived in a VERY small town, and she was the primary newspaper delivery lady for almost every person in town. There was a sweet little old couple who were both deaf and mute. My mom didn't know sign language, but she and this couple would communicate by writing things down on a piece of paper or a small chalkboard. I was only about 6 or 7 years old and would ride along with my mom after school when she went out to deliver the paper. Every single day, this couple would wait outside on their porch for her to come by, and she would take the time to stop, get out of the car, and go sit for a spell with them. In that day and age, many people referred to this couple as "deaf and dumb."
Even at such a young age, I thought it was kind of odd that they would be called "dumb" because they obvious weren't since they could read and write and communicate in that fashion with my mom and others. When I questioned my mom about why people called them "dumb", she told me that it was just the "old folks" way of saying deaf and mute and meaning that they couldn't hear or speak.
I agree that it does sound offensive, BUT I personally would not omit any part of what the physician dictated. If your account is "modified verbatim" then you might change it to "deaf and mute." However, if it is verbatim, then you should transcribe it exactly as it is dictated, regardless of whether it is politically correct or polite or whatever. :)
Your question just sparked that memory for me, and I thought I'd share it. :) Your dictating physician may be an older physician and his "poor English" may have been acquired from being around an much older generation who may still refer to those that are deaf and mute as "deaf and dumb."
Thanks for sharing - MTAJ
[ In Reply To ..]Thanks for sharing your story. It was interesting to read and very cute. I actually don't have an "account" per se. I work for a healthcare orginization and the person I asked is allowed to make those calls/changes. Me and the docs I type for get our paychecks from the same place. The physician isn't old at all but she may have learned that saying and is using it in the old fashioned manner. In my 7 years of transcription, I have never heard that phrase so I just felt unsure about putting into a document. Our QA process is extremely strict and we get dings on so many things. When asking my editor what I should do andher giving me instruction, I now don't have to worry about getting marked on it. I appreciate the input here but I feel like a moron based on some of the comments left which is why I will probably not post here anymore. I do thank you for sharing your story. :)
Definitely not a moron.....sm - LoveMT
[ In Reply To ..]I've been at this for a little over 17 years. When in doubt, never be afraid to ask. During my 1st year of transcribing in-house, I made a really obvious "newbie" mistake on a colonoscopy report, and the physician that dictated it actually came into our office and literally laughed in my face. He made me feel like an idiot in front of our entire office, made fun of me basically with the attitude like "how stupid can you be?" I NEVER forgot that, I swear. I can laugh about my mistake NOW, but I still think he was a bit of an ass to correct me the way he did. Some people just have no tact, even doctors. :)
Sounds like the people you work for are good people, and you did the right thing by asking your editor. You covered your rear, so to speak. She/he's the one who said to omit it, so they'll be the one to explain IF the physician questions it.
I am not lucky enough to work for a decent MTSO. I work for the big "N", so EVERY single thing we do is scrutinized ridiculously and unnecessarily most of the time. I've been sending a LOT of my documents with questions to our QC for review because of this.
I'm on my way out the door of MT very soon. My love for MT has been snuffed out completely by what has happened to me over the past year with this particular job.
I wish you the best and hope you continue to enjoy what you do. :) Oh and feel free to email me privately from here if you ever want to "pick a brain" and don't feel comfortable posting on a public forum.
Thanks again - MTAJ
[ In Reply To ..]Thanks again! I really do appreciate it. I know that if I would have left it and that document made it to QA, I would have got an FYI if anything but I would rather cover my rear for sure. She maybe didn't edit appropriately by leaving out mute but that's no longer on me.
I actually like doing what I do and I do work for a good company but I worry about my future in this field. I am hoping I can figure out a way to go to go back to school. I have had people ask me more about my job as they are curious about getting into it. I always tell them that I do not recommend it and why. I am lucky that my organization doesn't outsource or use voice regognition at this point but how long will that last?!
Really? - zz
[ In Reply To ..]"Me and the docs I type for get our paychecks...."
Really?
I agree with you. "Deaf and dumb" should be - deaf and mute. Not "dumb"
[ In Reply To ..].
Apparently someone else who - thinks
[ In Reply To ..]"dumb" in this context means "stupid." It does not. It means "unable to speak." Why change a word that is used properly in the context in which it appears?
NO. I am aware of what dumb means. - I am fluent in American Sign Language.
[ In Reply To ..]Dumb is an outdated term that can be offensive in the signing community.
I never made the mistake of confusing it with dumb, as in stupid.
IMO, I would have put it in quotes - whatanass
[ In Reply To ..]and let someone have a little talk with the doctor. what's next, saying queer in a report for gay people? Grow the F up doctor.
Not fluent - but can make do
[ In Reply To ..]...and what is ASL for "deaf?"
Everyone I know who's deaf uses the 2-D sign.
look it up in a (real) dictionary - slang/literal/colloquial
[ In Reply To ..]There's are lots of words that have different ways of being used--and they're not always demeaning.
IMO, no. But if HE said it that way, HE said it, no ME. - he is the author after all.
[ In Reply To ..]You are just the mechanics of putting it on paper. Nothing you can do but let him look the ass and cringe when you hear the phrase.
Political correctness run amok once again. - nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
...and an overweening editor making inappropriate edits - nm
[ In Reply To ..]
Thanks for making this my first and last post - MTAJ
[ In Reply To ..]I work for a company/healthcare orginization that probably does things a little differently. I came here for advice and input and instead of that, I got ridiculed. I had always been shy to post here and I guess I have had good reason.
Just a little advice....sm - LoveMT
[ In Reply To ..]You might need to thicken your skin a little. I'm not trying to be rude, but instead of running away from this board and the wealth of information you actually can gain from some very seasoned and experienced MTs, I'd suggest you ignore the snarky comments completely and use the other suggestions/advice to your advantage instead.
When one works from a remote location and doesn't have day-to-day human contact with other MTs, it can be very difficult to get help/advice/pointers, etc. Use this board as a resource and ignore the negative and/or posts that have nothing to contribute to what you are seeking. :)
I started out as a newbie MT in a hospital setting working alongside 4 other very experienced MTs, one of whom was a real b****, BUT she was also very knowledgeable, so I ignored her sarcasm and bad attitude and soaked up every bit of information I could gain from her in the 1-1/2 years I worked in house.
Once I decided to work from home, I realized just how glad I was that I'd had the time with these other experienced MTs to guide me in the very beginning. I never would've made it on my own working from home without having some kind of help, encouragement, advice, second pair of ears, etc.
I am still very good friends with 3 of the 4 ladies I worked with. Only one of them still works as an MT. She runs her own service, and there are times when I will pick up the phone and call her up to pick her brain about something work-related or just to chit-chat.
In other words, take what you can use from the advice you get here and leave the rest behind. :)
Thank you! - MTAJ
[ In Reply To ..]Thank you. I appreciate the advice and it sounds like excellent advice to me. I usually do have thick skin but I guess I wasn't expecting a few of the comments that I saw. They weren't even that bad but were simply unexpected.
Yes, this is definitely a thick-skin environment. - MTAJ, I disagree that "political correctness" is
[ In Reply To ..]an issue here. You just weren't used to hearing the word used that relatively rare way (because the condition is mercifically rare here) and wondered about it.
Dumb is a valid synonym for mute, or vice versa.
Here's a link to a Lancet article that manages to use aphasic, dumb, and mute many times on one page. :)
apologies - changed post to read "editor" - nm
[ In Reply To ..]
3 of you think the editor was correct in - omitting information?
[ In Reply To ..]unbelievable.
I don't think anyone thinks omitting was - appropriate.
[ In Reply To ..]The issue is whether she should have changed "dumb" to "mute."
The editor was 100% wrong to omit that information completely.
I don't recall seeing anyone here agree that omitting was appropriate....NM - LoveMT
[ In Reply To ..]NO MESSAGE
well, there were 3 dislikes to the inappropriate editing post - nm
[ In Reply To ..]
It's basic human kindness. - nm
[ In Reply To ..].
Kindness has nothing to do with it. - xx
[ In Reply To ..]"Dumb" does not mean "stupid" in this phrase and it never has. It means "mute." There is nothing wrong with the phrase. The ignorance is on the part of people with limited educations who only know one definition of "dumb."
There *is* something wrong with the phrase. - My "limited education," as you put it
[ In Reply To ..]happens to include extensive study in American Sign Language and the deaf and mute community. I'm very aware of the phrase "dumb" and its meaning in the two separate contexts. It is still a derogatory term.
I find it pretty ironic that you would imply that I'm ignorant and that I have a limited education.
you must be aware... - anon
[ In Reply To ..]Yes, "dumb" can mean "mute." However, the term "deaf and dumb" was used at a time when the deaf were discriminated against in unbelievable ways. You probably wouldn't believe the stories of abuse and oppression this phrase entails. It has a history. I know of NO deaf person who would be accepting of being called "deaf and dumb."
"Mute" actually means cannot speak, with "selective mutism" being unwilling to speak. The deaf are able to speak, their voices work. Very few deaf people are mute. A deaf person who communicates in a signed language rather than speech is not mute. "Mute" is a separate medical condition.
So yes, historically, the actual meaning of "deaf and dumb" is "deaf and stupid." This doctor needs to be educated in this realm.
but we don't change dictated medical records for that. - just sayin NM
[ In Reply To ..]He said it...so what?
Re: Political correctness comment - Just a gal
[ In Reply To ..]You (any everyone else) should remember that you are but one accident or illness away from being a disabled person yourself. Perhaps you will not take such a cavalier attitude if it happens to you or a loved one. Please think about this.
we agree "dumb" is unkind, but the editor's omission is inappropriate - nm
[ In Reply To ..]
that's right. We don't edit for political correctness - that belongs to newspapers, magazines, etc. NM
[ In Reply To ..]nm
No, we don't "agree." :) Dumb means unable - to speak, for whatever reason. nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
You are making the mistake of assuming - that
[ In Reply To ..]the word "dumb" in the phrase means "stupid." It does not. Words can and do have different meanings depending on the context. In this context, "dumb" has always meant "unable to speak." So, because of ignorance, you are assuming that I am an insensitive, evil person for simply understanding what the phrase means in context.
In the signing community - "dumb" is an archaic term
[ In Reply To ..]Being aware of that fact is the complete *opposite* of ignorance.
You mean in the cult of Gallaudet subset - of the
[ In Reply To ..]signing community. They tend to be more intent on seeking offense where none is offered or intended than the more rational elements of that community.
No, I absolutely do not mean in the Gallaudet - community.
[ In Reply To ..].
My editor said to change to just deaf... - MTAJ
[ In Reply To ..]as deaf and dumb is considered offensive and politically incorrect. I am sure case by case this could be different though.
well, your editor just compromised the note - sm
[ In Reply To ..]Your editor changed the meaning of the dictation by omitting that the patient could not speak. Deaf and dumb may not be the best idiom, but if the editor didn't like that, she should have recommended "doesn't speak." To summarily omit a finding is ignorant and inappropriate.
I agree, see my message above, but....sm - LoveMT
[ In Reply To ..]I think if the editor thought the phrase should be recast in the sentence, she could have used "deaf and mute" Omitting dictation and changing the meaning is considered a critical error with just about any MTSO.
mute is a great idea - the point is to not omit findings - nm
[ In Reply To ..]
That's exactly what I said, "deaf and mute" if recasting the sentence, but omitting d - LoveMT
[ In Reply To ..]NM
yes - I was agreeing with you! - : )
[ In Reply To ..]
MTAJ, you made a CRITICAL ERROR. Inexcusably - BAD judgment by your editor. Beware in future.nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
agree (I'm not the OP, though) - nm
[ In Reply To ..]
Not all deaf people can speak, you know. - Not good to leave it out.
[ In Reply To ..]nm
just deaf means she CAN speak, just cannot hear and editor - is so so wrong. holy cow.NM
[ In Reply To ..]/
is this appropriate? - anon
[ In Reply To ..]If this is what the doctor dictated, I would guess you would transcribe it as is.
I am back in school studying American Sign Language and Deaf Studies. The use of the term "deaf and dumb" is considered extremely unacceptable in this day and age. Deaf people find is offensive, perhaps as offensive as the dreaded "N" word to an African American.
In actuality, cases of "deaf mutes" are extremely rare. Deafness is a medical condition of hearing loss which does not affect the vocal cords.
I suppose it would be inappropriate for a transcriptionist to edit what the dictator stated, but for everyone reading this, just know the term "deaf and dumb" is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Likewise, the Deaf community is not accepting of the term "hearing impairment" either, as the word "impairment" implies a disability. The deaf do not see themselves as disabled. "Deaf" or "hard of hearing" are the correct terms to use. Just FYI.
People need to lighted up - crankyoldbiddy
[ In Reply To ..]Political correctness has become ridiculous! You can't have an opinion these days without offending someone. If the doctor said "deaf and dumb," who the hell are you to question that? Who the hell are you to tell me that I have to conform to what is acceptable in a community I do not belong to? If I want to call them dumb, I'll call them dumb. If I want to call them queer, I'll call them queer.. and so on. I don't have to like everyone. Everyone doesn't have to like me. Quit trying to shove your liberal PC BS down my throat!
WOW. - nm
[ In Reply To ..].
in polite response - anon
[ In Reply To ..]Attitudes such as yours are what perpetuate prejudice, pre-judgment without knowing the facts.
It is not about political correctness, it is about respecting others as human beings. Perhaps it is not political correctness that has run amok but rather a skewed view of free speech. Yes, you have the right to voice your opinion, but that does not mean your opinion is kind, decent or even fair.
You have the right to think and have an opinion. You have the right to be a cranky old biddy. But you are greatly depriving yourself of understanding and appreciating diversity.
I have an ASL instructor whose mom was physically struck by her teacher when she failed to vocalize a correct sound in speech training. I have an instructor whose deaf father wanted to go to college when he was a young man but was told by the college he could not attend because "deaf people could not learn."
If you were to meet the Deaf students at my college, or the Deaf kids who attend some of our youth programs, you may rethink your choice to use "deaf and dumb." Your opinion is yours, but it is your own loss to remain narrow-minded and judgmental.
A good quote to consider is "Be kinder than necessary because everyone is fighting their own personal battle."
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