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French scale - Muffan

Posted: Jul 15, 2014

In transcribing 6 French something, is a hyphen required?

Depends - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
A 6-French instrument.

The instrument used was 6 French.

no that is wrong - always hyphenated

[ In Reply To ..]
BOS III page 252

"The French scale is commonly used for sizing catheters, sounds, and other cylindrical instruments. A #1-French is equivalent to 0.33 mm or 1/77 inches of diameter. Thus the size in French units is roughly equal to the circumference of the catheter in millimeters. Precede by # or No. if the word "number" is dictated. Since the word "French" is linked directly to the diameter size (and is not an eponym), the number should be correlated to the word "French" with a hyphen. In other words, French does not describe "catheter," but instead partners with the numeral to designate size.

Examples:
5-French catheter
#5-French catheter
not
size 5 French catheter
not
catheter, size 5 French"

a prime example of why students should look in their - textbooks for answers

[ In Reply To ..]
I bet a similar answer was in the textbook, but the OP wanted to take a shortcut and post on this board.

Also wondering why a post from BOS got two dislikes??

Part of what you posted is the opposite of what - BOS says

[ In Reply To ..]
in the 2nd edition. BOS 2 says that correct examples are: 5-French catheter; #5-French catheter; and catheter, size 5 French (note no hyphen). Then it goes on to say "Thus, it is a 15-French catheter, not a French catheter, size 15."

Are you saying BOS 3 has changed the last correct example in BOS 2 of "catheter, size 5 French" to say that it is now INcorrect?

Thanks in advance.

what I posted was directly out of BOS III - on page 252

[ In Reply To ..]
Things get changed every time they revise the BOS. If what I posted is not the same as what was in BOS II, that means the rule was updated in BOS III. The reason was made clear in III:

"French does not describe "catheter," but instead partners with the numeral to designate size."

FWIW, I read further on the page about - gauges, etc

[ In Reply To ..]
for the word gauge, the same rule applies:

Examples:
21-gauge needle
18-gauge IV line
22-gauge butterfly

But it does not apply for

wires, pins and screws.

For these words, you transcribe as dictated.

Examples:
D: a three thirty two Steinmann pin
T: a 3/32-inch Steinmann pin

D: a four point five cortex screw
T: a 4.5 cortex screw
or
T: a 4.5 mm cortex screw

D: a number sixteen pin
T a #16 pin
not:
T: a 16 mm pin
not:
T a 16-inch pin

(because you don't know what is being referenced, i.e., inch or metric, thread diameter or head diameter, except as in the first example where clearly inch measurement was referenced)

I guess the confusion is really only about that - last example you posted

[ In Reply To ..]
which was

not
catheter, size 5 French

The rule I'm talking about is the fact that you do not need a hyphen when a compound modifier comes after the noun it modifies. That is why "catheter, size 5 French" is listed in BOS II as a correct way to transcribe it. The reason it correctly has no hyphen is only because it comes after the noun. It has always needed the hyphen when it comes before the noun.

I understand you're saying that the rule was changed, but the sentence "French does not describe 'catheter,' but instead partners with the numeral to designate size" has nothing to do with the fact that compound modifiers are not hyphenated when they come after the noun. We would transcribe "43-year-old male," but "male, 43 years old." Everything else you posted about what the BOS III says jibes with the BOS II. Are you sure you copied that absolutely verbatim in the order in which the text appeared? If you did, I think the editors screwed that one up. The only way that would make sense is if BOS III changed the entire rule on compound modifiers to read that they should have hyphens even when they come after the nouns they modify.

to be clear - they are saying they are not using - a compoud modifier rule

[ In Reply To ..]
but rather a rule relating to defining the size of the French.

In this case:
French does not modify the word that follows it.

The numeral partners with French.

You can argue all you want, and I will simply invite you to buy your own BOS III so you can argue with yourself.

They also modified the rule of hyphenating numerals and the metric system, as I was trying to point out.

You and I can go back and forth, but I would encourage you to purchase your own BOS III for the enlightenment you seek.

edited after double checking that you would never transcribe

catheter, 5 French

Because BOS III is saying the rule for hyphen usage when used with numbers that define measurement in the French scale and the metric system has been changed.

add the hyphen for French always, regardless of whether another word is involved or whether it is not.

5-French. period. Five pairs with French to designate 5 x 1/77 inch is the measure. A single French is 1/77 inch. Five times 1/77 is the total measure when the word five (or any numeral you would rather use) is used with the word French.

yes to
5-French catheter.

catheter, 5-French OR catheter, 5 French
should never in any circumstance be transcribed.
in.all.instances.

Not my rule. It is that of the BOS.

Thanks for the clarification - sm

[ In Reply To ..]
I don't think you understood that I was saying there was absolutely nothing different in the RULE for transcribing "French" in the BOS 3. It is essentially exactly the same as BOS 2. It does not make sense then to now say that "catheter, size 5 French," which was listed as a correct way to transcribe it in BOS 2, is an incorrect way to transcribe it without providing a change in the text of the rule. As I said, I believe the editors erred by not providing an explanation why a correct example in BOS 2 is now an incorrect example in BOS 3. The rule never changed at all.

This is the same concept as transcribing "3-cm incision" or "incision, 3 cm." "Cm" relates to size also. However, one would not transcribe "incision, 3-cm." The editors either made an error in the BOS 3 example or they neglected to reflect the rule change in the text.

Also, in your post directly above this, you said that "catheter, 5-French" should never in any circumstance be transcribed. I'm assuming that was just a typo because that is not what BOS 3 says, which of course you know as you correctly copied it in your original post.

In any case, thanks for double-checking the text on that. I won't be purchasing the BOS 3 because my employer does not use that, but I may reach out to Ms. Sims and inquire about this issue.

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