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Carol Buck Coding Prep Course - Interested

Posted: May 07, 2010

Is anyone familiar with all the Carol Buck books for coding certification training? I'm attempting to go through her 2010 Step-By-Step Medical Coding book and workbook along with the online "course" through Elsevier that accompanies the text. My plan is to finish this and then move on to her The Next Step Advanced coding book and workbook, and then go through her 2010 Online Internship. Here is what the publisher says about the "internship."

Get the practice you need to hit the ground running in your first job! Developed by leading coding author and educator Carol J. Buck, Online Internship for Medical Coding simulates the work experience you'd have in an actual medical center. It offers real-world experience in coding for more than 500 cases in 18 medical specialties. Best of all, you can prove course completion to potential employers by printing your online portfolio. This course complements and provides hands-on practice for the content in Buck's textbooks, Step-by-Step Medical Coding and The Next Step, Advanced Medical Coding. Stop waiting for the right internship position to open up -- now you can get the training you need from the convenience of your own computer!

Anyway, I was hoping that someone could give me an idea if this might be a good plan? I'm an MT right now (M-TEC grad), and I love working as an MT. I just want to add coding to my skill set because you just never know what the future holds! I'm also not sure I'm ever going to make enough money as an MT! Anyway, if I had my FIRST choice, I'd sign up for Andrew's school in a heartbeat. And that may end up being what I end up doing if my plan above doesn't work out. I just wish they had a course set up for someone who already has an MT background and doesn't need to start over with medical terminology, anatomy, etc. I'm reluctant to shell out money for courses I've already had.

Any thoughts?

andrews school - info

[ In Reply To ..]
the only turn off I had about ANdrews school was that they utilize a message board forum for mentoring instead of virtual on line classroom or lessons. This may be hard for some to follow. Dont you think? Some people need or prefer step by step instruction. any thoughts? I wish you the best luck and success with whatever you choose, and please keep us informed.

ERROR! ERROR, WILL ROBINSON! ERROR! - Redpen

[ In Reply To ..]
I try to avoid posting information specific to Andrews School and certainly avoid posting anything which might be construed as "advertising." However, I feel I must post something now.

First, let me say that there are lots of educational choices in MT and coding, and that is a great thing. It means that there is educational choice to fit everyone's needs. We don't pretend to be suitable for everyone. I know that Linda often helps students decide which school is best, even if it's not us.

That being said, I want to clear up a misunderstanding evidenced by the statement that Andrews School uses "a message board forum for mentoring instead of virtual on line classroom or lessons. This may be hard for some to follow. Dont you think? Some people need or prefer step by step instruction . . ."

With all respect, I fear you may have misunderstood something or confused us with another school.

Our coding program HAS a message board. We not only do not provide mentoring on it, but I cannot imagine how one might do that. Pehaps general advice, but not personal mentoring, which is something best done in private.

Our board contains general information like holiday hours; a place where new students can sign in so I know they found the board; forums where necessary information like answer keys and supplemental materials are posted; a forum where one of our instructors discusses work-related issues that many students find informative and interesting, and if a student doesn't, then they never have to go there; and a forum for conversation that hardly anyone uses in spite of my best attempts at enticing them. There is a place to post emergency questions on holidays and weekends when the school is closed.

You're correct that we do not use "virtual on line classroom or lessons." I don't know what you mean by that, but I'm sure we don't have it. If you're talking about an online class where students all meet at the same time and interact with each other using little cameras, we don't do that because students are not required to compete with each other for instructor attention or grades, or to learn by getting another student to teach them.

Nor are we sure that graded classroom participation is very useful for working adults. Most of them have figured out how to get along in a group and most of them can write quite well. We feel other things are more useful--like being able to code and to be productive in an independent working situation--so that's where we focus our attention.

By virtual lessons, I think you are referring to software that goes over the high points of the material, asking questions and providing learning games. We have not seen any we would like to use. One reason is that nearly all of our students work, so we have to accommodate their time limitations as far as possible. It's more efficient for them to learn coding by DOING coding. Virtual learning often ends up being learning ABOUT coding by talking about coding, playing coding-related games, and answering coding-like questions. And you still have to read the textbook and work the coding problems. (Can you hear the clock ticking?)

Further, when a coder gets out into the job market, they need to be skilled in self-teaching using reference and online documentation, because there won't be any more virtual clicky. Yes, coders have to be able read and learn from printed materials. It's part of the job.

OK, what's next . . . the step-by-step instruction. Yes, people do need it, which is why I sit here doing it night after night. It's the most efficient way to teach coding, so that's what we do. We do HOURS AND HOURS of this.

We provide reference-quality coding texts, directions, lots of stuff to code, and an instructor to answer questions and point you toward resources, check what you've come up with, figure out how you managed to go off the track, and to steer you back where you should be.

Instead of using course software, we teach primarily via personal, individual instruction. Some students require very little and others are instruction-intensive. It all depends on the student, with some picking up on and flying through the material nearly on their own, and others carrying on several email Q&A discussions each week.

Our students get to their goal by different routes, but we're sitting in the car with them the whole way. They do the driving, while we make sure their navigation is on track. We'll provide as many lessons in map-reading and engine maintenance as it takes. If you are curious about what this kind of instruction looks like, this post is a good example.

To my way of thinking, this is about as far as you can get from what was described in the post above, so you can see why I felt obligated to answer and why I said there must have been confusion with some other school.

One reason our course doesn't appeal to everyone is that it does have such a large amount of personal contact with live instructors and emphasis on self-sufficiency and achievement. Some prefer a blissfully instructor-free, computer-graded virtual online course or a semi-instructored online course, or an in-person class. The nice thing about coding education today is that there are choices.

So that you don't think everything is roses, I'll tell you that one of my main failings as an instructor, and in person, is that I don't always think to give praise. I forget that students want to hear how wonderful their 98% is, and to hear it in as specific, lengthy detail as they hear about the one error. But, in my mind, I believe they are already thrilled with the 98% that is correct and that they want to hear about everything they can do to avoid ever making that kind of error again. This is something I need to work on. I kind of knew this, but writingt this post made it more clear. So, I'm going to make a little note to review every test before sending it back and make sure to put as much praise on a test as . . . critical encouragement.

Thankyou REdpen - for posting this

[ In Reply To ..]
I am the one who posted that and I whole heartedlly apologize for having misinformation. I am so VERY GLAD to hear that the teaching is not just a message board. I have considered Andrews and am still considering Andrews versus AHIMA versus career step.
I am still so confused. I have been an MT a very long time, and just want to make the right decision on a school for coding because I am 51 years old and cannot afford anymore mistakes in my life.

For once in my life, I must admit that I really crave some intelligent, well-informed person would just point me in the right direction. The rest I can do myself.....I just find choosing a school so very hard and quite costly if I were to choose the wrong one, and I choose the wrong one, Im gonna be up the creek.

Thank you, Redpen! - And some questions...

[ In Reply To ..]
I just wanted to thank you for your post. I am trying to get as much info about Andrews as possible. I've been looking at trying to learn coding on my own using Carol Buck's Step-by-Step books. I do think her books are excellent. My concern is that when I make a mistake on a chapter review exercise and I don't necessarily know WHY I made the mistake, I have no one to help me. That worries me, and that is why I'm thinking that it might be a mistake to try to teach myself. I also learned the hard way in MT that where you go to school is critical to finding employment. I wasted money going a cheap route first and then ended up starting over at M-TEC. I don't want to make that mistake again, and in reading old posts about coding schools at MTEC's forum, I see that Susan always recommended Andrews.

Can you tell me more about which textbooks the Andrews course uses? Also, are there a LOT of hands-on activities? I find I learn best when I am not just reading page after page of information, but when I am actually answering questions and doing activities to help my brain retain the information.

I'm confused - Anonymous

[ In Reply To ..]
All this time I thought you were a working coder just here to offer suggestions to those of us new to coding. Now I find out you're an instructor for Andrews? Maybe I missed it, but it would have been nice if you'd been up front about that. In regard to the above post, it appears that you asked and then answered your own question....Help!!!!

What is Redpen? - Redpen

[ In Reply To ..]
I am a working coder! Most definitely so! I do come here to offer suggestions to those of you who are new to coding. There are a lot of expereinced MTs who do that for new MTs, but coders don't find keyboard conversation appealing--they can't type and often don't write as well as MTs--so you won't see a lot of experienced coders showing up to offer advice.

Why do I do this? Mostly because I think coding is a good field for MTs. If you'll notice, I try to provide generic industry-specific information. I encourage MTs to think of coding as a viable future career, but I don't recommend a particular school. Although I teach for Andrews, I recognize that it's not for everyone, so I just recommend coding in general.

I also try to clear up misinformation and misunderstanding about coding and coding training.

I'm sorry that you did not realize I was an instructor. I've been here for years. The name "Redpen" didn't clue you in? Well, it might not have, but that's where it comes from. Me and my virtual red pen. (I really use purple, not red.)

Above, I did not ask and then answer my own question. The "question" you think I asked is a quote from a post above. Look above it . . . you'll see it there unless it was edited. That's why I quoted it, though, so it would be clear that I was responding to something that had been said above.

Again, I'm sorry to have confused you. Do you have a suggestion about how I can fix my post to make it more clear? I can edit it.

What is Redpen? - Anonymous

[ In Reply To ..]
Thank you for clearing up that confusion. I've been an MT for years and years and just started coding school so I'm pretty new to this forum. I didn't make the "redpen" connection at all. I actually enjoy your posts a lot and do respect your opinion. I will probably be e-mailing you privately because I have some questions about certification although I still have a lot of ground to cover before then.

Thanks again, I need to study now....

I thought everyone here knew you are a coding instructor - We talked about it below

[ In Reply To ..]
The people who are here regularly know it because we've talked about it in the past.

Not everyone - see message - Anonymous

[ In Reply To ..]
I obviously did not know or I wouldn't have questioned it, my apologies to everyone.

That's ok, I should have been more clear. nm - Redpen

[ In Reply To ..]
nm

Dear Anonymous, - JM

[ In Reply To ..]
On this fairly new board, in her first post, Redpen identified herself as an instructor at Andrews.

Keep in mind - see message - Anonymous

[ In Reply To ..]
That if you want employment as a coding professional, you need to pass a national certification exam, you might want to keep that in mind when choosing your training. Personally, I'd look for programs that address working with electronic health records as well as traditional coding. If you think you could pass the module quizzes on anatomy and medical terminology offered in a formal program without doing any review, you could move quickly through that but still benefit from the entire program. I'm a veteran MT and was happy to have the refresher course.

She taught some classes I had (in person)! - ItsMe

[ In Reply To ..]
What a surprise to see this! She taught several classes that I had many years ago, in a brick and mortar setting. Sorry, I can't offer advice but had to comment after seeing her name here. I do MT, not coding. Good luck, however!

Coding programs - one size does not fit all - Lily

[ In Reply To ..]
I too wish coding school programs were not one size fits all, especially when many of us on this board have years of MT experience with exposure to medical terminology and anatomy and physiology. I am ready to start coding school right away and this is a deterrent. Have not figured out what to do. Cannot yet reconcile spending significant money and time unnecessarily. Sorry, do not know about the Carol Buck material.

I felt this way, too. However, sm - stillsearching

[ In Reply To ..]
I decided to test myself with some online medical terminology tests and I did not remember a lot of what I thought I knew! I think there is a tendency, for me at least, to become complacent after so many years and if you don't use a lot of those terms daily, you forget things!

Complacent - OP

[ In Reply To ..]
I can see your point about getting complacent and finding a refresher helpful after many years. In my case, though, I'm a fairly recent M-TEC grad. I just really don't feel a need to take those classes again right away. I know I could get through them quickly if I went to Andrews for coding, but my husband is frustrated by the idea of paying for the whole program when I don't necessarily need the whole program - especially after paying for my M-TEC education (which was worth every penny!). But, after going through M-TEC, I realize the importance of getting the very best education, which is why Andrews is on my mind. I'm just feeling so frustrated right now! I guess I'll just keep Andrews in mind in case I fail miserably in trying to prepare myself for those coding certification exams. My biggest concern in trying to prepare on my own is the whole "not knowing what I don't know" issue.

Oh, for people who are interested in coding and do want a refresher in medical terminology, I found an interesting resource. It is a book called "Medical Terminology for Insurance and Coding." Looks like a great book! :)

Complacent - Anonymous

[ In Reply To ..]
If you want to do the Andrews program or something similar, you might consider talking to the program director or instructor to find out if they will let you waive those courses. My opinion is either just skip to the end of the chapter(s) and take the quiz or go ahead and do it. Reviewing things never hurt any of us, you never know what kind of questions they will ask on the final. Good luck choosing a program.

Thanks! - OP

[ In Reply To ..]
Just wanted to thank you for your advice! I agree that reviewing things is always a good idea. I'm just having a hard time with the idea of paying that much for the review, though I'm certainly not ruling it out. I really do wish there was some kind of MT to Coding bridge program out there. I know M-TEC had a similar bridge program for people who already had experience in health care, but at least at this point, M-TEC does not offer a coding program.

I have no doubt that Andrews has an excellent coding program, and it is my first choice out of all of the options. Now, to find a way to get it to work out without the hubby flipping out! :)

I see. Is there a way for you to test out of certain things? - stillsearching

[ In Reply To ..]
I am going back to school in the fall and part of the coding program at my community college is keyboarding 101! I can pay a $15 fee for a "credit by exam". You may want to ask if you could do something like that?

Testing Out - OP

[ In Reply To ..]
No, I'm pretty sure you can't test out of any classes at Andrews. I've been discussing this quite a bit today with my husband. At this point, I think I might just go ahead and sign up at Andrews. I sent Linda Andrews an email with some questions a little while ago. Hopefully she will get back to me soon. After looking at the course descriptions on her website, it doesn't look like TOO much of the course will be a review of what I already learned in my MT training. I'm really hoping that the textbooks will at least be different from what I've already been through!

I am nervous about putting out so much money right now, but I think it may be worth the investment. I hope!!!

Reviewing basic medical sciences . . . - Redpen

[ In Reply To ..]
There are three very good reasons, I think, to review med terms and the basic medical sciences when you learn coding.

First, you're going to have to review them anyway for a certification exam. You won't want to lose any points on that section--you can't afford it. Check the prices on those exams; do you really want to blow that much away AND lose out on a possible job because of it?

Second, it's useful to know what coding programs teach (or should teach). Right now, your focus is on just getting a job as a coder. Are you really going to want to stay there? Maybe you'll want to advance into supervision, auditing, consulting, and/or teaching. Maybe you'll find yourself teaching physicians how to document more effectively.

When you do that, the knowledge of what coders should have been taught may come in handy. As a supervisor, you'll know what they should know and how to help them get there when they don't. As a trainer, you'll know what to teach. As a documentation expert, you'll be able to say "Let me explain the knowledge base most coders have. That may help you understand how to document so that they'll see what they need to see."

Even if you were a physician, running over the basic science materials used in a coding program would make sense. Sure, you probably know it all and more, but it's still useful to know what coders are taught. It helps you understand where they are coming from, so that you can communicate with your future employees or trainees.

Third, a few years from now, coding with ICD-10 is going to require more anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology. Even if you just finished these courses, perhaps you can use the time you'd spend doing the same thing over again to learn more? Some schools might let you test out. But, perhsps it would be better if you could spend your study time investigating special topics further? Perhaps you could use a more advanced book? Instead of a book on disease processes that colleges use, maybe you could use a graduate nursing text? Maybe you could find a school that would be willing to work with you on that.

I know that if I had to take another online college course in A&P, I'd shoot myself. The last one involved online tests I couldn't see well enough to figure out or click fast enough to finish, mislabeled body parts, and answers that went with the wrong questions. I didn't enjoy that or learn very much--except that I never want to teach that way--so I can see your point in not wanting to do something like that.

Preferred testing methods - Lily

[ In Reply To ..]
What kind of testing do you think is best? How does the Andrews school teach and test? Books, on-line material or both? What would a lesson or module entail? Thanks for your contributions to this board.

My opinion - Redpen

[ In Reply To ..]
What kind of testing do I think is best? Testing that is a learning experience. Yes, I know all educators say that, but sometimes they mean it is supposed to show you where you stand with regard to getting into college or graduate school, or to show employers whether you're worth hiring or not.

In some learning situations, though, it might not be important to sort people out by worth. It might be more important to prepare them for doing whatever it is they are learning. That becomes very important when students aren't attending a school just to mark time between high school and a job, but are learning in order to learn what they need to know to get and DO a particular job. Learning becomes less hypothetical and more practical.

In a hypothetical learning situation, a test might consist of questions like "How many chapters are there in the ICD-9-CM code book?," "Skin conditions are found in what number range?," or "True or False? A list of modifiers is found in Appendix D of the CPT code manual."

Right off-hand, I do not know or care about the answers to those questions. Nobody ever needs to know the number of chapters in any code book. I've never needed to know the number range for skin conditions, although my hand knows where they are. If you need the modifiers, you can just fan the pages until you see them.

If the requirements of the job are to do coding (or MT) accurately, and if it is important to pass a certification exam, then that is what the testing should help you learn. After studying a chapter on coding skin diseases, during which you followed along in the textbook to see how they did it and you practiced with examples for which you had the answers, a good test might be to see if you can use the information in the chapter and the code book to accurately code some skin diseases and report the answer in a comprehensible fashion just like you are explaining it another coder.

With that kind of test, you discover that you can do the same thing on the job or on a certification test. The test becomes practice in a job-related skill. An instructor can then look at what you did, make sure you did it for the right reason, figure out why if you didn't, and come back with questions that will help you discover for yourself what you did wrong.

I like books, and I think there are some significant advantages to them, especially for adult learners. Printed material, whether in a book or online, is what you will use on the job. Books also smell nice, you can write in them, you have a permanent copy of them, you can paste stickies in them, and they can be carried around. They do not require high-speed internet access or the latest computer, you never have to call tech support because they never go down, and you never have to print them out screen by annoying screen. You can even study when the electricity is out.

Some online multiple-choice and true-false tests are useful in getting used to computer-based testing like that used in some certification exams, but some exams use paper and pencil, so it's important to have some of that, too.

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