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Independent contractor - IRS definition of an IC, the IC cannot be tested - anon

Posted: Mar 13, 2010

As I understand it, according to IRS definition of an IC, the IC cannot be tested. If this is so, how do the transcription companies get away with testing for IC positions as mentioned in their ads. Is this legal?

Hmm, I didn't realize that. - blondie

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I had no idea. I applied with Fast Chart, and I was shocked at their low pay scale for ICs. Not only that, they want you to work a schedule from what I have heard. I think some just use IC as an excuse not to have benefits or pay social security on workers.

They do . . . and they WILL get busted - Ex-MT

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Yes, IC status means you are in charge. Yes, I do believe that a lot of MT companies, including some hospitals, are using the IC status thinking that they can just randomly use this status to not pay benefits, taxes, or social security, and at the same time dictate the price, schedule, etc. That is not what IC status is and if the company in question is reported or investigated, they WILL GET BUSTED AND FINED.

IC doesn't = IN CHARGE - Ima MT

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If you hire a plumber and he says he will fix your toilet at 2 a.m. and it will take him 3 days to do it.... would you hire him? Of course not.

So when a contractor is hired, it is within reason that the contractor be given parameters in which the job must be completed.

Your painter can't decide he likes pink rather than the lovely coffee color you picked out and paint your walls pink. No, you give him the SPECS and expect he will follow them.

The biggest error many MT companies make and for whatever reason people who think of themselves as IC's accept, is the contract. There needs to be a contract between parties. If the MT is going to let the company generate the contract, then it's up to the MT to tweak that contract so it meets their needs. If you don't like being fined for not getting your work completed (and I believe Fast Chart does this) then don't sign that contract. If you don't want to work for 4 cpl for editing, then state your rate and then they get to decide if they are willing to pay that rate.

Another big issue is the IC working for just 1 company and not advertising their services to others, should they need them.

Yes, many MT services are going to have to adjust as the IRS begins to finally crack down on services with contractors. But there are just as many MTs who CALL themselves ICs and don't have a clue what that means.

agree wtih you partly, on the contract haggling part...but - small message

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but the specifics - I take following specifics as what format the account wants and filling turn-around time requires ONLY - has nothing to do with setting hours or testing to get the job.

Put it your way - Do I make the painter do spot on the wall and check how he did? Do I make the plumber flush to see if he can??

scheduling, overhiring is the direct result of MTSOs setting15-min to 1 hr - voice to report TATs-HUGE mistake

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.

In Charge - Former MT and wisely so

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Let's get real here . . . I think we both know for a fact that the "client" has the option to "hire" whomever they wish to do a job; however, the "client" hires the "contractor" only if they agree to the services and prices that the "contractor" requires on their estimate and only if the "client" and "contractor" can come to a negotiated agreement. The "client" does not tell the "contractor" what the price is, etc.; however, the "contractor" will try to accommodate the "client" within reasonable limits because they want the contract. But . . . how many MT jobs do you know of that are actually performed and/or requested "within reason" . . . not many if any at all. The "client" is acting unethical and taking advantage of what the "client" perceives as a desperate worker willing to take and do anything . . . what do you think that is categorized under?

Categorized as a not-too-smart MT - Ima MT

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You said: The "client" is acting unethical and taking advantage of what the "client" perceives as a desperate worker willing to take and do anything . . . what do you think that is categorized under?

ANY MT that signs a contract they disagree with is just dumb. Any MT who agrees to work for peanuts third shift as an IC when they want a decent wage, day shift as an employee is just dumb.

Yes, MTSO's push the envelope but they couldn't push it unless MTs ALLOWED THEMSELVES TO BE shoved inside it.

There are many shady MTSO practices, but I'm sick and tired of hearing about the god awful MTSO when there is equal blame to be laid at the feet of MTs, from those who undercut originally that started sending wages down, to those that say, I'm an IC and can do what I want, to those that say, they won't pay me a fair wage.

Stick up for yourself. Or if you want to work for crap hours, crap wages, go to Walmart or an office or some other job where at least then you can look your "boss" in the face and voice how unhappy you are.

the..."client" is not the MTSO but the hospital/facility, - client, mtso, mt in that order unfortunately

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.

Not if you are an IC which I thought was the topic! - Ima MT

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There is NO DIFFERENCE between an MTSO and an IC, except that in most instances the MTSO hires people.

Just as the hospital is the CLIENT of the MTSO, the MTSO is the CLIENT of an IC.

I just can't understand what's so hard with grasping that concept of reality.

so true-...but not out there where it counts, NM - it is what it is-not what it is supposed to be

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unfortunate for all.

I know I sound contrary - Ima MT

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But that's just the point. IF you declare yourself an independent contractor you are on equal footing with an MTSO. You have the right to go to any hospital and bid for their account. You are simply an MT service of ONE.

The MTs who want to be CALLED ICs because they thing that means "do whatever the hell I want when I want" just don't get it. And it is this classification -- that is the same as the MTSO who wants to call us ICs and then treat us as employees.

There's no reality difference in the classification unless an MT is willing to NOT exercise their rights as an independent contractor, which are to negotiate rates, hours, etc. If you allow all that stuff to be dictated to you but call yourself an IC, then one has to wonder- what's the pay off for you?

they cannot force you to work ANY schedule - no way

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If they do, you should report them to the IRS.

cannot force you but you won't find work until that time. - so what you gonna do? nm

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x

Please show me where it says that, please - Ima MT

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I thought I had practically memorized the IRS statutes with regard to IC-- shuddered when they went from the 20-rule to the 3-rule standard, but never recall seeing it say you cannot be tested.

No such rule - Ima MT

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Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:

Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?
Financial: Are the business aspects of the workerâ��s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)
Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

In the 3-rule law, there's enough information to know that most of the companies using ICs are NOT in compliance, but it has nothing to do with whether or not you are tested.

They can test - they just cannot tell you when and where to work.

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But they do anyway and somehow they get away with it because IC's are afraid to lose their jobs if they rattle the apple cart too hard.

Technically, no company can tell any IC what schedule to hold, what hours to work, how many lines to type or determine in any way what sort of daily line count minimums they must adhere to.

Manipulating the status - Former MT wisely so

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That is EXACTLY correct.

It is also correct that employers are taking advantage of the situation because of people being afraid to lose their jobs. . . it is just an unethical situation in my opinion.

How is that possible? - Typin_away

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"Technically, no company can tell any IC what schedule to hold, what hours to work, how many lines to type or determine in any way what sort of daily line count minimums they must adhere to."

I am trying to get a grasp on the IC vs Employee thing but I don't understand why a company would want to hire an IC then?

How would the company know how many MT's they would need? How will they know if they will meet turn a round times? Just from a business standpoint, it doesn't make sense to hire an IC when you don't know when or even IF they will work.

C O N T R A C T - Ima MT

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I'd love to know how many MTs that do the majority of kvetching on here have ever SUBMITTED A CONTRACT to a company asking for an IC.

This really isn't rocket science. Every MT IC is an MTSO in their own accord. Just as the big service owners, go to clients and negotiate a contract, so should EVERY SINGLE MT IC.

So you say, I will do xx lines. Client agrees. You say, I will do them at xx time. Client says, need to negotiate that because my needs are different. You either negotiate something workable on both ends or you don't. If you don't then you go on to the next client until you find one who doesn't care if you show up ever, how much you do, how well it's down, etc.

An MTSO knows how many lines an account generates. They they know if an MT has agreed to 1200 lines a day, how many of those MTs it will take, 600 lines the same thing, etc.

So many times you read about companies over-hiring but a lot of times, it's companies who have ICs who think they only have to work when they feel like it.

I will never work without a contract. - TiredMT

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If you don't have a contract, you do not have a leg to stand on. There has to be an agreement and you agree to your schedule and stick with it. It's very simple. When MTSO's and IC's have contracts, everyone is happy. MTSO's like having IC's because they don't have to pay benefits and IC's who like being IC's are happy because they can arrange their own scheduling to suit their situation. I prefer being an IC and will never have it any other way. It also means I can work for more than one MTSO at a time, which is ideal because you never know when an account gets lost for one reason or the other.

IC and MT - Ex-MT

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Well the IC status for MTs started long ago, when the hospitals thought they could just throw around IC status at employees to keep from having to pay certain taxes and benefits. Some, who were caught, got into trouble and had to pay hefty fines, while others have not been caught or just keep changing the game plan so that everyone remains confused. What happen was back then IC status MTs made probably a little more money than they do now; however, now everything has evolved and the "norm" has been set, i.e. low wages, people accept being dictated demands from "clients," etc. It really doesn't matter anymore because the entire MT industry has been exploited to the point of no return. The IC status now is the norm and everything has been suppressed (wages, etc.).

IC - Former MT wisely so

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I know someone who worked for the IRS and many many hospitals and healthcare organizations HAVE been busted because of how they are trying to loop hole the independent contractor status . . . the "client" can only "test" you if the "contractor" wants to. The "client" cannot set the requirements for hire . . . if they do, well, are we sure the "client" is not wanting to hire an employee?

Bingo! nm - Bang on

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nm

you got it - need work

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Also, if you have an evaluation (ie QA review) then that would fall under the 'employee' category. The real crux of it is in determining IC or employee status and I quote the IRS website on IC or employee:

"Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:

1.
Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?
2.
Financial: Are the business aspects of the workerâ��s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)
3.
Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?"

1. Ummm, yes I believe they do have the right to control how we do our job.
2 .Ummm, yes I do believe they control how we are paid.
3. Ummm, yes the work is a key aspect of the business.

So, really is any MTSO legal in having ICs to do the work. Do they not tell us on a daily basis how to do our job?

Also, I was 'contracted' as Monday thru Friday. We constantly ran out of work during those days, but I was held to a very strict '800 lines/day' part-time IC agreement. We were constantly threatened with being put on a weekend rotation schedule because no one wanted to work the weekends. I did just to meet my line count even though by 'contract' I wasn't supposed to work weekends.

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