A community of 30,000 US Transcriptionist serving Medical Transcription Industry
Looking for companies that pay 8 cpl - mter
Posted: Jun 12, 2012
Looking for companies that pay 10 cpl - let me know what you find
[ In Reply To ..]I wont settle for 8!
8 cpl - MT
[ In Reply To ..]That's good for me that you won't settle for 8 since I make $20 to $40 an hour with 8 cents a line. I'll keep scooping up the jobs for 8 no problem!
sure ya do - whatever
[ In Reply To ..]No way!
Whatever - Observer
[ In Reply To ..]Perhaps he or she can. Please don't judge others' abilities by your own. All people have different levels of skill and experience.
Right, cause you type 400-500 lph? - dreamer
[ In Reply To ..]Some people make up the craziest stuff.
You can make good money at 8 cpl - me
[ In Reply To ..]depending on the platform you work on - I worked on Bayscribe and averaged 350-400 lph with all the stuff in my glossary. Was able to make decent money in a short work day...I wouldn't take an 8 cpl job otherwise. This is on Bayscribe, so I don't know what other platforms allow you to accomplish.
I get 9 cpl and work on ChartScript - Average 225 to 300/h
[ In Reply To ..]I do not understand why people think that just because THEY cannot make decent money that someone is lying. I average $23 to $28 an hour every single day.
400 LPH - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]400 LPH is easy to achieve if you have at least 40% shorthand
I'm making $25-35 lph at 8 cpl but took a cut in pay - from 9 cpl, sm
[ In Reply To ..]Would love, love, love to have 9 cpl back. I do type 300-400 lph (with the usual variables for different dictators and normals that I have in my shortcut keys). It can be done and has been done by many transcriptionists throughout the years. I don't see anything crazy about it at all.
sorry, that's a typo $25-35 lph, you guys know - what I mean, nm
[ In Reply To ..].
I don't see anything crazy about it, either. - Old Pro
[ In Reply To ..]I did it for years. Even on my last account, which was virtually all ESLs at a well-known East Coast Hospital, I was still doing 300-350.
yes, anyone who utilizes their shortcuts can produce - a large volume typing, nm
[ In Reply To ..].
we all used to be able to do that too - sm
[ In Reply To ..]but that was before SR.
because nobody does straight typing anymore - is why
[ In Reply To ..]Lemme tell ya, I make MORE than 8 cpl and no I'm not going to tell you where, but on an average day I get maybe 200 lines of straight typing. So okay, you make $25-$35 an hour WHEN YOU TYPE, but what about the other 7.5 hours of the day?
Know-It-Alls - wow
[ In Reply To ..]I straight type all day, every day, well 6 days. Make more than 8 cpl. Do 300-400 lph. I don't do any VR at all.
So for all you know-it-alls who love to speak in sweeping generalizations of "all" and "nobody" take a chill pill. There really are MTs doing straight type, all day, every day and making a darn nice living doing it.
and braggarts wow - nm
[ In Reply To ..]nm
Yes, I do straight typing and templates, no VR - just me
[ In Reply To ..]And make a good living....No VR whatsoever. Lots of templates....and straight typing. All day, every day.
don't get too comfortable - is all I can say
[ In Reply To ..]That's a sweet deal and you're fortunate (although I see no need to rub it in on us), but you may be surprised one day and find yourself in the same boat we're in.
Don't worry, I have been, but there is still work out there - just me
[ In Reply To ..]I was just letting her know there is still work out there and money to be made. I spent several years making nothing while building my business back up, which is finally just lately paying off. Nothing worse than paying to work (overhead exceeding salary and large account setups costing quite a bit)-- been there, done that. Do not worry though, as I have suffered a lot along the way. I should remember never to post a positive post on here, where nobody is allowed to be happy or make money.
Don't worry - another happy MT
[ In Reply To ..]Congrats to you for where you are now. Your absolutely right, every time someone makes a "happy" comment, they are called "liars." I don't make that kind of money, but I could if I learned how to use my expanders properly. My problem is I am "retired" (name only) and I think I have "retiritis" just like senioritis. I don't want to do it any more, but unfortunately, I have to work at least for awhile anyway. I love where I am working now, so I am going to try to figure out how to improve my counts.
Shortcuts, etc - just me
[ In Reply To ..]Enjoying your job is sometimes more gratifying than more money and hating your job. Here is how I did it: I put a small notebook in front of my computer with the new abbreviations and each day incorporated new ones. It was easy then because I had 2 dictators. I now have 96 and cannot remember them all, but I also have templated stuff and template out anything I possibly can. I even gave one client a discount if she would leave her normals alone instead of redictating them a slightly different way each time,which saves us both time and money. Good luck! Trust me, if you have a job you truly enjoy, the money will come....
Know-it-alls - anon
[ In Reply To ..]I've been doing this 30+ years and do straight typing now, but I can't seem to make that. I think my problem is not using so many shortcuts which I am trying to build on to get a better line count. Any tips you can give me would surely be appreciated. I use Shorthand as my expander, but I know I don't use it to its full potential. I just cannot figure out how to do some of the shortcuts. Thanks for any help. You can e-mail me if you like.
I put any words that I misspell all the time in my shortcuts also so it changes - it to the correct spelling, sm
[ In Reply To ..]I also utilize the beginnings of a lot of words. Of course you know the usual like wnl=within normal limits, but I find putting words like actually= shortcut is actx and shortcut appa = apparently helps a great deal. I get finger tied on some of these words and find myself back spacing which takes up time. I have a tone of shortcuts like this that help out a great deal in saving time, ack=acknowledge, ach=achieved, addi = additional, so on and so on. It's easier for me to remember the shortcut when I am typing part of the word. I also have the usual shortcuts for BP= blood pressure and VS for vital signs which I put an x on the shortcut, vsx and bpx for shortcuts that are dictated as abbreviations that I am not supposed to expand. Once you get the hang of your shortcuts, you will literally fly through your reports (granted it being a report you can understand). I did 1222 lines today in 3 hours and 15 minutes. Yes, this is for straight transcription, not VR.
Shorthand - productive MT
[ In Reply To ..]I have a system of using the first letter of each word and doing long phrases. "tptt" The patient tolerated the procedure well.
I also put in anything I spell wrong frequently or that my fingers like to screw up -- were, was, has. My fingers LOVE to transpose letters :D
Also, if you are using Shorthand, you can do a file for each account you do. I work on 5 accounts and each has their own file. So if I do allh in one account it gives me ALLERGIES: No known drug allergies. That way I don't have to remember the formatting for how that acct wants their allergies listed. For another I use the same key codes but it might give me ALLERGIES: No known.
Any phrase that you type more than twice in a day is worth making up a shortcut for, IMO. I have years and years of shortcuts that help me tremendously.
good post! One that helps somebody... - just me
[ In Reply To ..]It is nice to see somebody helping another instead of bashing them. Good post. If you do operative reports or procedures, the doctors say the same thing or close in portions of it, so it is helpful to save these out too. I have had jobs where the same surgeons dictate at different facilities and their dictation has been word for word, even 1-12 years later! Using a text expander also increases production tremendously. Get your own though, so you do not lose it when changing jobs or platforms.
Just Me - anon
[ In Reply To ..]Thank you I do use SH, although not as effectively as I could, just thick headed when it comes to the codes. Tried and tried to no avail.
Productive MT - anon
[ In Reply To ..]Thank you for the info. I have never been able to figure out how to do the codes in SH. I've tried, but guess I am just thick-headed. Even though I use SH, I am not real familiar with all it can do.
Thank You - anon
[ In Reply To ..]Thanks for the tips. I'm learning after all these years, never thought of shortcutting words I stumble over, but I will now. I tend to just shortcuts for the usual or things I type all the time. Again, thanks for the tips.
AGREE - 100%
[ In Reply To ..]Dont believe it for a minute
this is for strictly typing, 8 hours a day, lots of posts - on this board, nm
[ In Reply To ..]for jobs that are not VR. Check them out. Even when I did do VR, I did 450 or more lph. It just didn't pay enough money. I couldn't VR the lines I could type in an hour 350-450 would mean I would have to VR 700-900 lph. There was too much correction going on to be able to do that. Not to mention most of these companies overhire and there isn't enough work on VR anyway.
good grief, there is a message in the above post, - so open it up. nm in this post
[ In Reply To ..].
I'm sure it's possible but... - MT2
[ In Reply To ..]..these random posts when somebody asks for companies to look into with "I make great money" but "I'm going to make a big deal about keeping it a secret" are so useless. It would come across much less like bragging if MTs actually were helpful and shared information - platform, demographics, straight/VR percentage, headers and footers, etc., never mind why those same MTs are afraid to give their own company good press on a medical transcription board.
I have always typed 300-400 lph throughout my - 20 something year MT career, sm
[ In Reply To ..]I have worked for several different companies througout the years. I worked for TransHealth (now part of Nuance) and Medquist (now MModal), just to name two. The company isn't the entire reason for success. The ability of the transcriptionist has a lot to do with it.
But how is this helpful? - CB
[ In Reply To ..]So do I (25 + years in the business) some days but some days I do not. It does certainly depend on the platform, familiarity with accounts, looking up addresses/referenced physicians/states/cities/facilities, how many demographic screens, how much unpaid info needs to be added, how nitpicky QA is etc. In fact, I made $50,000+ the last year at my previous company, but will certainly not make it at my new one, even though I type at the same speed.
For me to answer the OP's questions with "I'm fast and I type 300-400 lines an hour" would serve what purpose?
there was no purpose. Some of these responses - are to other posts who do, sm
[ In Reply To ..]who think one is dreaming if they think they can type 300-400 lph. It was in reply to the OP as the OP post was
"Looking for companies that pay 8 cpl"
Nanny nanny boo boo..... - nauseated by all the bragging
[ In Reply To ..]It serves the same purpose as your bragging.
Hey MTs...I type 10,000,000 lines per hour and I make 3.2 million dollars a year too. I have a condo on the ocean and servants in my 10,000 square foot house. I burn money to keep me warm and my diamond shoes are too tight!
Go jump in the lake! The ONLY perk of this job is the part about being at home. It surely ISN'T the carpal tunnel or the frozen shoulder or the chair butt from sitting all day long OR the money!!!!!!!
Why so jealous? - unreal
[ In Reply To ..]nm
the reason I can't say - where I work
[ In Reply To ..]is because not everyone here makes the same cpl. I didn't mean to brag when I said I made more than 8 cpl, just saying that it doesn't really matter because of how little straight typing I actually do in a day.
wasn't directed at you... - MT
[ In Reply To ..]I find your post helpful, at least you volunteered information. :)
I love lying MTs - MTworking
[ In Reply To ..]Who do you think is actually going to believe that? Those of us in the industry KNOW better than that! You are not straight typing or editing and making that kind of money. If you are QA and work 100 hours a week....maybe. Dream on!
who do you think you are? - sm
[ In Reply To ..]Let me tell you something. I was paid by the hour, working in private practice. Just for the heck of it, I would run the numbers to see what I would be paid at 8 cpl. It was always between $20-40 an hour.
see now why do you have to keep - cramming that down our throats?
[ In Reply To ..]Never would I call you a liar. Just insensitive.
I love lying MTs - MTworking
[ In Reply To ..]Don't sugar coat it. This person is trying to say she types between 2500 to 4000 lines per day to equal making 20-40 per hour on 0.08 cents per line. She IS a liar! I bet she has 100+ years of experience too, right? Give me a break! You people crack me up! The only people making that kind of money are the OWNERS OF THE COMPANY!
I love stupid MTs - again - you MISUNDERSTOOD
[ In Reply To ..]
no cramming intended, honest -- - check me out
[ In Reply To ..]Please note - my hourly wage was not $20 an hour. I was paid a flat hourly rate, not based on production, with no production incentive. Curious to see how my production would be paid by the line, I would calculate it from time to time and find that it was always higher than my hourly pay.
The point, though, is I had lots of advantages in this position: I always had the same doctors, the same specialties, and I had been there for years. I only had one set of account specifics - and they were mine. I didn't have new voices and new specialities cropping up without warning, sound quality was pretty well managed, and I didn't lose money when I needed to research something.
So, what I was saying is this: MTs who produce lots of lines per day don't have to be lying about it. They might have some really good accounts. If I had to be on numerous accounts with various doctors and specialties, never becoming an "expert" with my dictator or my discipline, it would be very difficult for me to maintain high production from one day to the next.
switched accounts - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]fyi the accounts and dictators are constantly being changed etc so you cannot utilize same doc same dictation kind of shorthand - it is unfortunate to be constantly thrown around but if you utilize your shorthand you will be able to keep your line count
Not lying, but still braggin - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]You are just as judgmental. You think if someone has multiple accounts, they could never be an expert like you.
Simply done with this waste of my time. Have a good day typing you 10,000 lines or whatever it is you do.
mtworking - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]you are hilarious
if you would network with your fellow MTs instead of bashing them you would find out how wrong you are
networking - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]Virtual friendship?...not into it...sorry.
mtworking - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]I WAS TALKING ABOUT LOCALLY FINDING AN MT NETWORK
you totally missed the point - bragging?!
[ In Reply To ..]BRAGGING? I was going OUT OF MY WAY to explain that I was NOT an expert, and that the ACCOUNT you are on can make a big difference. Did you notice I spoke in the PAST TENSE about my job? I got replaced by VR a while back. No, dear, I'm not bragging.
I love lying MTs - MTworking
[ In Reply To ..]"I WAS paid by the hour"...is that past tense?? You would have had to type between 2500-4000 lines per day. You are crazy! I don't doubt that if you were paid by the hour and lived in a high cost of living place like California, you would make that. But you DO NOT type 2500 to 4000 lines a day sister! The question is WHO DO YOU THINK YOUUUUUUU are? I can't wait to retire from this profession and get back to the real world where people can't lie about their lives, years of experience etc... Just waiting it out until the ship rolls in folks!
serious comprehension issue - total fail
[ In Reply To ..]
MT Working - Anonymous MT
[ In Reply To ..]I believe that because I make $30/hour. And please don't judge others' skills by your own. Sometimes it doesn't work.
I'd match my skills with yours any day - and I make
[ In Reply To ..]$14.50 an hour. But I'm glad to get it when I see so many making minimum wage.
What can I say....Uhhhh DON'T BELIEVE YOU EITHER!!!! - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]Let me guess...you have 20+ years experience....blah blah blah blah
well yes actually I do, almost 30 - why is that hard to believe?
[ In Reply To ..]are you making fun of me for only making $14.50?
What are you - FIVE
[ In Reply To ..]Your immaturity is gross.
I totally understand your disbelief because it's clear you don't have the skills to still be one of the lucky MT who are still making $50-60k a year. Probably never did.
Your actions speak volumes.
well thanks a lot - that really hurt
[ In Reply To ..]and I don't think I deserved it. I used to make $50,000 year and now I make less than that, and so you kick me when I'm down and call me immature on top of it. Thanks.
I love lying MTs - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]ACTUALLY, I have a college degree and only do this marginal job until my kids are in school and I can resume a real career. I couldn't care less about you because you probably have so many errors in that million+ lines per hour that you do, it's not funny. That's the difference between me and you....I have more than just this MT world you live in! Eat that!
mt working - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]why are you so bitter? It is very sad you should be happy for people that are doing well,
By the way MT IS A CAREER
it is really pathetic that you made that statement
i feel sorry for the people that you type reports for as i am sure your work reflects YOUR CRAPPY ATTITUDE
Bitter - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]I never said anything about my own personal job. For all you know, I could be happy as a peach. My job stands on it's own. I don't have to tell you all that I do or how happy I am. You apparently have to reaffirm yourself by telling others about your job..This whole posting fun is not about MY job...it's about the people who can't stop trying to convince me that they are making $50,000 a year typing. Why do you feel so compelled to convince me of that? Little secret........I really don't care....
bittermtworking - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]i was responding to a post from somebody that they wanted to make more LPH and i would be happy to give anyone on this board advice about how create SH and that is why i posted so that people know it is possible
you could not possibly be doing well in any part of your life - it is rather apparent given your attitude,
by the way i make considerably more than that a year so reread all the posts and get your facts straight
as usual ASSUMING makes an azz out of you - seriously
[ In Reply To ..]grow up. You don't have a clue about my life or what I do with it. But if you want to build yourself up thinking you're all that (while proving every time you post that you are not) that's fine.
You gonna teach those kids how to interact with humans the way you do? Oh bruther, look out, there will be a whole family of 5 year olds.
I love lying MTs - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]Hmmmm personal attacks on my kids and family. Wow...who is the immature one now.
I love lying MTs-another note... - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]The only one immature...is those of you who discuss how much money you make on a public forum where no one can prove you wrong...thankfully, I have common sense!! YOU are the 5-year-old who apparently makes as much money as an engineer. Retiring soon...cannot wait!
oh I guess the OP was calling you the 5-year-old - and not me
[ In Reply To ..]that really actually made me cry! So maybe I am immature! but hey MT Working, you know, making $14.50 just is not that much money.
I love lying MTs-another note... - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]Huh? Your post made noooooo sense
well you said - see message
[ In Reply To ..]that you didn't believe I make $14.50 and then someone else came on about the 5 year old thing and I thought they were talking to me but I guess they were talking to you. It made me cry but probably won't hurt your feelings too much. But anyway, yes I make $14.50 an hour, but that's not really that much these days. Much less than I used to make back in the day.
14.50 - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]DONT LET MTWORKING GET YOU UPSET, she is obviously very bitter and i bet if she spent her time typing instead of on this board BASHING EVERYONE for trying to be helpful she would be making some money
good luck and email me if you need any shorthand tips !!! peace!
Sounds like you need to retire now - another working MT
[ In Reply To ..]We are really sorry do not have a good job, but this is a forum where we are supposed to be helping our colleagues and not bashing them. It is possible to still make money in this field. Sounds like you either need to retire or find another job if you are not happy or making money. Land your own clients and/or start your own service.
Oh my gosh, you guys are so insightful!!! - MTworking
[ In Reply To ..]All done on this board. Got better things to do. I have a job and you all have spent just as much time, if not more, bashing me because I don't believe you. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.
Gotta go back to my bitter life...the sun is setting on my beautiful country home, my horses are in the pasture, my garden is growing and I am sipping tea on my front porch. But, I'm bitter right??
I won't lose any sleep over any of you. Good night.
Yeah right and you have - hand maidens
[ In Reply To ..]and such right?
Right, porch, country home, horses, no way. You're a liar.
all on less than $14.50 - an hour!
[ In Reply To ..]wow it's Super Woman! We better start being nicer to her.
I love lying MTs-another note... - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]Ummmm, I'm married genius!
I hope he's heavily sedated - you know
[ In Reply To ..]like the song says, all you're ever gonna be is mean.
Good one.. - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]If I cared enough about your opinion...I might have gotten mad, but your post was so stupid, I can't help but laugh at you. Ya just can't quit posting to me can you???
mtworking - biw
[ In Reply To ..]i thought you said you were not coming back here?
Don't believe you either. NM - MT working
[ In Reply To ..]NM
mtworking - cruz
[ In Reply To ..]you might want to get out and meet your fellow MTs because girl you are CLUELESS!!
Believe what you want - Still making good money
[ In Reply To ..]Very fortunate to still be working for a hospital that does straight typing, all on ChartScript.
8 cpl - MT
[ In Reply To ..]It is possible when you apply for jobs that you normally wouldn't. I don't work on a platform, I do straight typing every day, and have never done SR in my life. The person who responded to the OP said they would NEVER work for 8 cpl. It's their loss if they are too picky about what they will accept. Oh, I also don't have a schedule. I work when I want, the true meaning of an IC.
IC work when you want - true meaning, sm - MT20+ years
[ In Reply To ..]the meaning of an IC doesn't necessarily mean you work when you want... you contract the hours you want to work but then you are expected to work them. Would I hire a plumber who wants to come in and change out my kitchen sink at 1 a.m. because it was convenient for him, NOPE, not unless I have a leak.
That's why you are looking. NM. - bockeecr6088
[ In Reply To ..]NM
Check out the Job Seekers board, several have - their pay listed, nm
[ In Reply To ..].
MxSecure pays 8 cpl - just me
[ In Reply To ..]Although it has been several years since I have worked there, they paid 8 cpl, no VR, always had work and extra, etc. I liked them and wished I could have stayed, but I had built up my own client base and had a main job as well.
MxSecure - mter
[ In Reply To ..]Thank you just me. You are the only proper response to my question.
is Mx employee or IC - CJ
[ In Reply To ..]Is MxSecure IC or employee?
Outdated information - MT
[ In Reply To ..]They pay 7.5 for straight (but with incentive) and it is not all straight anymore. Their VR platform is MxEditor and M-Modal based. Employee only, no more ICs.
I stand corrected. Yes, it has been a few years. - just me
[ In Reply To ..]Thank you for the update.
I work for Mx - 5yrMT
[ In Reply To ..]Mx pays 0.675 for ST and 0.05 for VR and they no longer employ ICs.
HTH
Looking for 8 cpl? Not me, I'm looking for a job - that pays hourly. Production pay is c**p..
[ In Reply To ..]
8 cpl and great field! - just me
[ In Reply To ..]There was a job posted the other night for 8 cpl for Vic Pro Typing for pain management. Great field, lots of money to be made. I wanted to apply but am already transcribing 9 accounts.
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Any Companies Allow MAC Use?
Feb 23, 2012
Experienced MT looking for PT work but currently have a MAC with dual operating system (VMware Fusion) or Windows on a MAC. Any info on companies that allow this, if any, would be greatly appreciated! My choice would be NOT to have to buy a new PC unless I absolutely have to! Thanks! ...
I Have To Wonder How These Companies Think We
Apr 13, 2012
can make it on $15 a day!! I just started a week ago yesterday and have also run out of work twice. This is really pathetic. I know some on here say they would never take such a low paying job (4 for editing and 6 for straight typing). Had I not been desperate, believe me I would not have either. I have to wonder what happened. I know I will get a lot of answers to that question, but why in the world are we the ones getting such lousy pay? I am seriously ...
All Companies Are The Same. They All Want You To
Apr 23, 2012
guess if you cannot understand something. Oh they won't tell you straight out to guess, but that is what they want you to do. It is the same ole blame the MT mentality. If the ESL is horrible, do not dare ask them to speak better. MAke the MT guess and if SHE gets it wrong, it is on HER head. No thank you!! God what I would not do to find something else:))) ...
Are All Companies Going To VR?
May 21, 2012
My pay has been cut by more than half and I'm working longer hours due to VR on most accounts. Well, when I have work anyway. Are there any companies that hire for straight typing any longer? How do people live on this work now? I had to come back to my verbally abusive husband due to no money and I was literally starving. This is all I know, have been an MT now for 20 years. What to do............ ...
What Gets Me About Certain Companies
May 25, 2012
is when they post an ad for help. I send my resume clearly showing my experience for the job and they never even contact me, even putting up another ad. This just gets me!! ...
Same Companies Over And Over Again
Sep 25, 2012
I know this was addressed yesterday, but the same companies are posting the same jobs. Are they just getting busier or is everyone quitting??? I don't even feel like applying for these same jobs. Does anyone know what is happening? It seems like there is a lot of work out there, but the same work. ...
Very Sad Pay At Most Companies
Dec 08, 2012
It amazes me how many people try to make others feel bad for accepting these positions. Unfortunately right now these wages are what this market is and people who need a job who need to work to live don't have a choice but to accept these positions. So they do so only to have to constantly listen to others saying they are "stupid" for taking it and they are the reason the companies continue to do so. Yes there is an option to get out of the field and work elsewhere but for ...
What The Companies Will Tell You About VR
Jan 21, 2013
I have recently interviewed (on the phone) with two different MT companies that I see are hiring on the board and mentioned here. BOTH told me that I would increase my speed substantially if I used their VR platform as a reason to only pay me pennies (one 3CPL and one 4CPL) for doing VR. From my experience, that tends to be a completely untrue. My current job uses eScription, which IMO is one of the best VR softwares out there. It also shows you how many lines you h ...
Does Anyone Know Which Companies
Jun 20, 2013
use DocQScribe currently? I appreciate any info! ...
Companies
Aug 04, 2013
There is no perfect company and/or job out there. You can post on here and ask about any company you want and you will hear good and bad about them. A company that is great for one person may be awful for another for various reasons. Depends on what you are looking for and/or what you are willing to just deal with. My advise, take what you read here with a grain of salt and make your decision, if it sounds like something you might like give it a shot, if it doesn't w ...