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Sorry a repost. Got too buried. Advice on ICD10 manuals pls! - MM coder trainee.
Posted: Mar 25, 2014
For the MM program, we will not be provided the manuals until we move into "real coder" status.
Bummer. They are providing us with ebooks but I don't think the actual manuals would come in ebook format, am I right?
So, I found some 2014 ICD-10-CM and ICD-10-PCS books by Optum on Amazon (is that Optum Ingenix?) They are "official drafts" - whatever that means, sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Also why am I not seeing a combined ICD-10-CM and PCS book, didn't they used to do that for ICD-9? Is it to do with the fact that there are more codes, the book would just be too damn big?
Too bad these are so pricey. But, just pondering if these would help my student/apprentice phase measurably. (Of course, I AM assuming I will pass my course and apprenticeship -> goes into my cost/benefit analysis.)
Unbelievable, but no wait, their MModal, totally believable - NM
[ In Reply To ..]NM
Oops, they're not their, sorry - NM
[ In Reply To ..]NM
Well, I can understand it. They have no idea - What the attrition rate will be.
[ In Reply To ..]And the books are 80-85 each. ICD-10, ICD-PCS, CPT would be 240 bucks modest estimate.
If the dropout rate is anything like some would have us believe, then I can see why they would not provide the books off the bat.
But it would have been nicer if they had. For me, I think I will need the books to get the systems fully straight in my head.
this is a tremendous cost to the company. they are paying not only - East MT
[ In Reply To ..]the MTs to learn but they are paying the instructor. also there will be 60 fewer MTs transcribing so that will stress workflow. I don't think buying one book is that big of a deal. If you were going to college you would pay for everything.
chump change - to Duncan
[ In Reply To ..]x
Poor babies. They're gonna get even richer - than they already are off the coders.
[ In Reply To ..]nm
A huge loss. Makes you wonder why they didn't hire ones who've finished school already - and just have an apprenticeship. Hmmm. NM
[ In Reply To ..]x
Because there are too few. - See explanation
[ In Reply To ..]There is a shortage of coders. They would have trouble finding 60 new coders at once, and I expect that they tried to find coders already. That's why employers start up training programs like that.
There is also the issue of those new coders having no proof of ability. That is why employers want experience and credentials. They don't want to risk the usual new-hire issues.
And, they want them to be reliable. By choosing their own known good employees, they avoid bad apples, avoid new coders who didn't learn much but squeaked by on the exam, and save a lot of trouble.
exactly. There was a shortage of coders before ICD10 - East MT
[ In Reply To ..]now it's going to be even worse because some coders are retiring or just not bothering to do ICD10 and leaving the field all together.
Do you know how many ICD-10 educated and certified coders are looking for jobs? - sm
[ In Reply To ..]Go check out the job boards like indeed.com. There is definitely no shortage of coders, or any job that has classes which can be done online for that matter. There are so many begging for work and regretting spending all that money on school with no jobs available. This reminds me of Mmodal saying they had to offshore MT because they had a shortage of MTs. Total bull.
Yes, I know EXACTLY how many. - Exactly Zero
[ In Reply To ..]It is zero because it is impossible for there to be any ICD-10 certified coders. As of this date, neither certifying organization has begun offering their exams in ICD-10. They still use ICD-9.
A lot of working coders know 10, but they aren't necessarily looking for jobs.
You can say that all those indeed.com etc coders are evidence that there are enough, but I know differently. I see them when they apply for jobs. They have no experience, the wrong experience, no certification (it turns out when you try to verify it), took a matchbook course, never finished (it turns out when you try to verify It), or can't code.
She did not say ICD-10 certified - She said ICD-10 educated
[ In Reply To ..]I am a certified coder who is ICD-10 educated. I think she makes a good point.
She said "ICD-10 educated and certified" - sm
[ In Reply To ..]To me, that is someone educated in and certified in ICD-10.
The opposite, certified, but educated in ICD-10, do not exist in enough UNEMPLOYED numbers to do a single company like that any good.
I meant ICD-10 educated people, who are already certified in ICD-9. - Job site forums are full of them begging for work.
[ In Reply To ..]x
Then maybe there is a reason they are - unemployable.
[ In Reply To ..]You don't know those people are what they claim to be or if they are any good. You don't know what their background checks look like, either.
You wouldn't believe the craziness we see when we advertise jobs. Some of them would be unemployable in any capacity.
Training your own known good employees is a lot better sometimes than taking unknowns off the street.
I think the MM bigwigs could afford to spring - for the necessary books to - SM
[ In Reply To ..]provide to their coding students, since they're offering this *training*, after all. Especially when they appear to be doing this whole coding thing not out of the goodness of their hearts, but in order to try to save their company and their obscene profits. They sure don't look very far down the road, do they? No wonder they went bankrupt.
Can we not turn this board into a forum for - hating M*Modal, please?
[ In Reply To ..]This really isn't the place for it. This is a general coding board, not a board focused on one employer.
agreed. this is not the place for it - East MT
[ In Reply To ..]x
Except that, eventually, you all could end up - being M*Modal employees.
[ In Reply To ..]Like all the MTs that kept leaving, only to be bought back when their other companies were gobbled up. Or those who left MTSOs to work onsite, only to have the work outsourced to.... you guessed it.
This is baiting. - Not going to respond.
[ In Reply To ..]NM
well with the extremely generous bonus you get for moving into the - CAP and then completing it
[ In Reply To ..]you can buy your own books. Hate to be so blunt but you took it there.
Get used to it - WXYZ
[ In Reply To ..]When you are ready to take the certification exam, you will need to become a member of AHIMA or AAPC and pay an exam fee. You will have annual dues that will probably come out of your own pocket. If you attend seminars you will have to pay for those, books are really only the beginning. M-Modal is not furnishing hard copy books but they pay big bucks for those E-book licenses. They are providing paid training for you. Not having to haul those big books around with you if you want to study on the go is a very good point. As an MT you purchased your own equipment; a PC is a lot more expensive than a coding book. Think of it as an investment in your future and deduct it as a business expense.
How can one afford all that when coder pay is - gonna drop like a rock soon?
[ In Reply To ..].
This is baiting. - Not going to respond.
[ In Reply To ..]NM
That's the way it is - WXYZ
[ In Reply To ..]Unfortunately, that is the reality of coding. I'm not sure what you are basing your salary info on, but coders pay generally goes up, not down. Once you are trained, you don't have to work for MM. As far as the certification, maintaining CECs, etc., employers expect that. Unlike MT, certification is taken seriously. Maybe you needed to investigate that before you got involved in coding.
Probably pretty high attrition, if they don't provide - manuals. - SkepticalMt
[ In Reply To ..]nmsg
No, many coders use e-books - Not a big deal
[ In Reply To ..]Many coders use e-books now. It all depends on what you are used to. If you check the Optum website, you will see them.
In fact, many courses and colleges teaching ANY subject use e-books rather than paper.
My facility's ENTIRE medical library is electronic. It is much better than before.
I thought I would hate e-books until I got a Kindle. Fifteen minutes later, I loved it and now loathe reading paper books.
they'll be lucky if 15 actually complete the program - successfully. nm
[ In Reply To ..]X
why? - East MT
[ In Reply To ..]just curious.
A couple people just talking smack - coding student
[ In Reply To ..]Don't worry about it. It won't do any good to ask them why, because they don't know anything about it.
many MTs think coding is like MT or underestimate - the difficulty level.
[ In Reply To ..]They get into it thinking since they're MTs it will be a piece of cake, only to find out it is nothing like they expected. That's why these online schools are making a mint, people dropping the dough on a program and then realizing that coding really isn't for them. It really takes a certain kind of personality, very studious and analytical.
we were told we had to take bi weekly tests and make a - 95. anything less is not accepted
[ In Reply To ..]and you will have to leave the program. I do hope these MTs will take it seriously.
This is for MM's coding program? - nm
[ In Reply To ..]x
yes - x
[ In Reply To ..]x
So they won't even be given the chance to - learn from their mistakes & retest?
[ In Reply To ..]That's pretty harsh.
They probably figure we are on their dime so a - way to enforce studying etc I
[ In Reply To ..]think a few will weed out the first month unfortunately.
It might have depended on the edition - coding student
[ In Reply To ..]My CM and PCS are separate -- in fact i think they are the same ones you saw on Amazon. I was told they are called Draft because ICD-10 has not gone into effect yet and there still could be some changes made to them. Once October hits, we will be getting the official set.
What is the '"real coder" phase?
Thanks! Program = trainee phase, apprentice phase, - then real coder phase! (nm)
[ In Reply To ..]
I am going to defer to someone more experienced - coding student
[ In Reply To ..]because I know only certain books are okay to take certification exams with. I would think if there was a possibility that you would want to take the CPC this year, you probably should get one that is approved for that test. I am sure someone can tell you that . . . I just haven't made it that far yet. Sorry. :(
The CPC will not switch until Jan 2015 - Coder
[ In Reply To ..]The Optum editions will almost surely be the one they allow.
It is the CPT book you have to worry about. They only allow the AMA editions. Optum sells them but Optum also has an "Expert" edition that they don't allow. They don't allow a whole bunch of other companies' editions, too.
Guaranteed mistake-free advice!!! - Coder
[ In Reply To ..]Sure, the code sets come in an e-file. Lots of coders love them. Just think about hauling those books around on planes. You would prefer a file in your laptop. You can download it from the CDC, which issues it every year. It is free. Publishers just pick it up, add goodies, and print it.
Yes, 2 books because it would be too big.
Yes, it is an official draft. That's all there is so far.
Well, bummer, but it isn't a "bad sign." The problem they have is that the code books ARE "draft," as you noticed, and pricey. You will be learning for about 4 to 6 months, at which point ... a final edition is going to be released. Which they will ALSO have to buy for you. (Many employers do not supply code books, so don't get weirded out if they don't.)
Yes, the Optum edition is the one you want. Are the ones. You probably only need the ICD-10-CM right now. Training programs usually start with diagnosis coding, not procedures, so you should only need ICD-10-CM right now.
Get it on Amazon. The price is probably better and you will have it in a few days. Optum can be slow and I think they charge shipping. Since it is over 25, I think you will get free shipping on Amazon.
Don't get a HCPCS book yet. That one isn't really critical. At least not for now.
While you are on Amazon, look up Icd-10 Nelly Leon Chisen WITH ANSWERS. I don't know if MM will use it, but if not, it is THE ultimate, "official," genuine famous, authoritative book on coding. If you decide to get another textbook, get this one. It is what coders call "Faye Brown," after the author if the original version. I get a new one every year, right along with code books.
THANKS CODER! - Saved me a few Buckinghamshire!
[ In Reply To ..]So I WAS going to order the Optum ICD-10-CM and ICD-PCS.
But, although I HATE e-textbooks and e-manuals, I might see if I can deal with just the e-ICD-10/PCS, esp since they are FREE! Woot! And if they are going to issue the final version in a few months, well, then... I don't want 2 versions of 2014 books, kind of a waste.
But now I really want that Nelly Leon Chisen book (w/answers)! I may or may not wait until closer to cert study to get that one... hmmmm...
my advisor said emphatically do not get the book - with answers.
[ In Reply To ..]She said she felt strongly that it is a crutch. I have to enter my answers online, then see if I have the right answer. This actually hinders my learning since if I'm wrong on a bunch of exercises, I have to start all over and figure out where I went wrong.
I feel strongly you NEED the answers - Coding student
[ In Reply To ..]If you can find a coding book with answers and rationale, that's even better, IMO.
There is some truth to that - Coder
[ In Reply To ..]Students often -- more often than not -- think they will "learn" by looking at the answers. They think they will look at them and "remember" the right answer. "I am going to learn from my mistakes."
They almost always look at the answers too soon.
You know, you read the scenario, take a stab at coding it, and check the answer to see how close you got. And you think you'll know for next time. "I'll remember how to code this now."
In coding, it isn't a question of remembering how to code individual situations, but of using the guidelines and everything else to get to what you need. If you apply everything correctly, you can code anything correctly.
If you review the guidelines and the text, and you look up the codes correctly and follow what the code book says, you should be correct most of the time. Then, when you check the answer, if it is incorrect, you should go back over all of that to see where you went wrong. You have to figure it out. If you cannot explain it well enough to teach someone else, you did not learn from it.
This is important in coding because you will need to do that kind of review and explaining to defend yourself when auditors say you coded incorrectly.
If you get Nelly Leon Chisen with the answers, you will see that they are right in the middle of the answer space, not in the back. You can't avoid seeing them. You will need to cover them up with a piece of paper or big sticky notes.
Something to remember, too...that book teaches inpatient coding. The reason inpatient is more difficult is that it involves more complex coding. There are more decisions, more putting things together. Some people just don't seem to juggle all that like others do. If you are one of them, don't worry. Outpatient doesn't require that nearly as much. It is much more straightforward. Fewer combinations, fewer diagnoses, and far less sequencing. It is just one encounter at a time, not a whole stay. You can go into that instead.
Doesn't the Chisen book technically cover... - sm
[ In Reply To ..]Both inpatient and outpatient coding? Is there a way to only learn outpatient coding, or is it always taught together? Also, does an outpatient coder need the same credentials as an inpatient coder? I know I would be better at outpatient, plus it seems a lot less stressful. I know it doesn't pay as well, but I've learned not to put a price on my sanity.
Technically, yes. - Are you the same person?
[ In Reply To ..]And how do you "know" that outpatient pays less???
It does not necessarily pay less, nor all that much less. You need to see the salary surveys on the AAPC and AHIMA websites. I know outpatient coders who make more than 100K.
Some courses only teach outpatient. The AAPC course, which they teach online and local instructors teach, as well, only teach outpatient. Some colleges only teach outpatient.
The AAPC offers outpatient credentials.
I hope you are not the same person, because these are all things you should have checked long before signing up for that instructor-free course.
well shame on me then, I guess, but thanks - for the reply all the same. nm
[ In Reply To ..]X
Already accepted to coding program? - old cranky MT
[ In Reply To ..]I'm a little confused, sounds like some of you have already been accepted to the coding program for MM, yet it was in the original email from the company that we had until 3/31 to complete the testing. How can you be sure you are going to do the training? Is there another email that went out talking about the coding books/manuals? What am I missing?
Per MM coding info - future coder
[ In Reply To ..]Test had to be done by the 17th, orientation was on the 24 and 25th, actual class starts on the 31st. Most heard end of last week if they were accepted or not.
Son of a biscquit. NM - cranky old stupid MT
[ In Reply To ..].
I totally understand your confusion - anon
[ In Reply To ..]I'm not surprised you're confused. They never bothered to let most of us know if we got into the program or not so you're not alone. Others did finally receive a response after they wrote to the organizer for one, and even then the rejection was addressed to "Dear (blank space)" ... they couldn't even take the time to put the person's name on it.
No the classes start on Monday. - East MT
[ In Reply To ..]Test was actually supposed to be done by the 16th.
How can you do a cost-benefit analysis w/o - L&L
[ In Reply To ..]of what you will be paid or earning.
I do know what I will be paid, at the very minimum. - Details in our offer letters. (nm)
[ In Reply To ..]
Easy if you consider the long term - sm
[ In Reply To ..]A cost-benefit analysis is very easy if you think in the long term ... just see the AHIMA and AAPC salary surveys.
While the immediate benefits are important, this can be considered a 2 to 2.5 year training program. After that, you need to look to future earning potential in the open market. That is readily available in those salary surveys.
Career progression also needs to be considered. This training puts you onto the HIM career ladder. You can see where that goes at www.hicareers.com.
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